Question for Science-y science sifters on arguments/brain
I find that sometimes my brain obeys all these different kinds of social pressures when I argue, such as...
-fear that my views will not be acceptable to others in the thread.
-fear that if I don't use acceptable terminology and certain excepted cultural frames, that my arguments won't be seen as valid.
-an attempt to adopt the frames of my opponent in order to be more persuasive.
-a desire to offend or be abrasive in response to same or bullying of others.
-worry about being branded something or other and dismissed.
-fear that my views will be dismissed because they don't match up with how a particular issue has been painted by various aspects of culture.
....among other things
And other times (when I vape, or I'm really relaxed, or really concentrate, or when I feel this mysterious energy to set some record straight) all of that bullshit goes away and I speak with clarity and complete candor.
Usually (but not always), when I do this my arguments seem much more offensive to my opponents, despite the fact that they are always more reasoned and civil. Those who agree with me like these comments much better, probably because they are both more straightforward, spoken with more confidence and more civil. Most importantly, I find that people who are on the fence are more likely to take my side when I make arguments from this brainstate. I tend to feel more open to everyone who argues in this brainstate, whether I agree with them or not. I also basically don't get offended by anything when in this mode.
I interpret this as that I have two argument minds, a more primative fear based mind and a more empathy and courage based mind. I'm in the empathy mind right now, or I would be writing slightly kooky, curious and inquisitive sift talk posts like this.
To the science people: What is happening to my brain as it shifts from these modes? Is there writing and research on this kind of stuff? Why does it shift? Does everyone feel something similar to this? If I know one is better than the other, why do I sometimes choose the worse route? (I probably know the answer to that: concentrate on making it happens and it probably will. - but writing this is a bit of a way to do that.) Is there someway to encourage others to go to the empathy mind state.
I notice other people make this shift too, and I know they must feel the same thing. I also find that my understanding of this concept helps me see through all the bullshit and manipulation of others when they are in their fear minds.
Anyway, it's tough to discuss this stuff, because there isn't much framework to do so, no terms, no cultural references or well known info on it to crib from (or is there?). I'd be interested to hear people discuss this phenomena. I feel like if everyone could switch to this empathy brainstate we'd be better off. I also feel like so much negativity in media and cultural encourages use of the fear brain. It also seems like some people deliberately tries to instil this brainstate in others for various reasons.
Part of my fear brain says this post could be seen as condescending in some ways, too revealing and open in some ways, vain in some ways, goofy in some ways, drug induced nonsense in some ways, a little schitzo in some ways, a little self serving in some ways, etc. But I say fuck you to that fear brain right now.
I'd love us to talk about those weird and abstract things we humans often think about and don't discuss.
-fear that my views will not be acceptable to others in the thread.
-fear that if I don't use acceptable terminology and certain excepted cultural frames, that my arguments won't be seen as valid.
-an attempt to adopt the frames of my opponent in order to be more persuasive.
-a desire to offend or be abrasive in response to same or bullying of others.
-worry about being branded something or other and dismissed.
-fear that my views will be dismissed because they don't match up with how a particular issue has been painted by various aspects of culture.
....among other things
And other times (when I vape, or I'm really relaxed, or really concentrate, or when I feel this mysterious energy to set some record straight) all of that bullshit goes away and I speak with clarity and complete candor.
Usually (but not always), when I do this my arguments seem much more offensive to my opponents, despite the fact that they are always more reasoned and civil. Those who agree with me like these comments much better, probably because they are both more straightforward, spoken with more confidence and more civil. Most importantly, I find that people who are on the fence are more likely to take my side when I make arguments from this brainstate. I tend to feel more open to everyone who argues in this brainstate, whether I agree with them or not. I also basically don't get offended by anything when in this mode.
I interpret this as that I have two argument minds, a more primative fear based mind and a more empathy and courage based mind. I'm in the empathy mind right now, or I would be writing slightly kooky, curious and inquisitive sift talk posts like this.
To the science people: What is happening to my brain as it shifts from these modes? Is there writing and research on this kind of stuff? Why does it shift? Does everyone feel something similar to this? If I know one is better than the other, why do I sometimes choose the worse route? (I probably know the answer to that: concentrate on making it happens and it probably will. - but writing this is a bit of a way to do that.) Is there someway to encourage others to go to the empathy mind state.
I notice other people make this shift too, and I know they must feel the same thing. I also find that my understanding of this concept helps me see through all the bullshit and manipulation of others when they are in their fear minds.
Anyway, it's tough to discuss this stuff, because there isn't much framework to do so, no terms, no cultural references or well known info on it to crib from (or is there?). I'd be interested to hear people discuss this phenomena. I feel like if everyone could switch to this empathy brainstate we'd be better off. I also feel like so much negativity in media and cultural encourages use of the fear brain. It also seems like some people deliberately tries to instil this brainstate in others for various reasons.
Part of my fear brain says this post could be seen as condescending in some ways, too revealing and open in some ways, vain in some ways, goofy in some ways, drug induced nonsense in some ways, a little schitzo in some ways, a little self serving in some ways, etc. But I say fuck you to that fear brain right now.
I'd love us to talk about those weird and abstract things we humans often think about and don't discuss.
15 Comments
NetRunnerI find that I write most clearly and movingly when I'm in some sort of charged emotional state. If I let myself cool off, I'm a lot more analytical and long-winded.
I also have the general strategy of poking people in the eyes to get them to engage in a conversation with me, rather than just pigeonholing me and ignoring me.
jonnyThere is bound to be some bias in your perception of the quality and reception of comments you've made in each state of mind, reinforced partly by any positive or negative feelings experienced in each state.
What you're describing, though, is a set of normal mental states that lie on a continuum between paralyzing social fear and sociopathic egotism. (Sociopaths can be incredibly charming and persuasive.)
It basically comes down to attention. In the "fear state", there's a lot of second guessing, correcting, self-censorship, etc. Also, the more your attention is distracted by thoughts of social acceptance/rejection, the less you have available for focusing on the ideas at hand, expressing your own ideas, making insightful connections, humorous points, etc.
berticusActually, there is an enormous literature on persuasion, argument, attitude change, etc. Social psychologists love that stuff. You should look into the psychology of persuasion, it's fascinating -- but prepare to be depressed.
As to your 'mental states', I doubt it's black and white. I'd say it's a continuum as per jonny's comments, and shifts along this continuum are due to attending — or not attending — to certain cues at certain times that change the way you argue.
alien_conceptI tend to talk from the viewpoint of a horny teenaged boy as a default. I very rarely care how people take me, unless the meaning behind something is ambiguous. I do want people to understand that my humour is pretty black and often "offensive", and I don't want to have to say "just kidding!!", I absolutely hate that. If I'm going to go there, what's the point I may as well jump, not toe-dip my way through situations. I realise people don't know me in real life so can't know that I am ALL about diversity, I figure that they will find that out if they give enough of a fuck
So I suppose that I either expect people to ignore me, therefore I continue saying what I like with a slight lack of regard; challenge me, whereby then I take a look at myself and either justify myself to them or completely agree and become their humble servant, or completely get me and understand that I am very rarely being serious. Except when I am being serious of course, then I can pull some levels of eloquence out of my backside. That's for special occasions though.
I want to be liked, but I don't want to make too much effort, I believe that sums it up. Also, my god-given vagina dictates that all my feelings on this are subject to change at any time
JiggaJonsonRelevant: http://www.cracked.com/article_19468_5-logical-fallacies-that-make-you-wrong-more-than-you-think.html
critical_dhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego
berticusid, ego, and super-ego are a bunch of pseudo-scientific hogwash.
dystopianfuturetoday@critical_d and @berticus I'd love to hear you two discuss id,ego,super ego.
The wiki page painted a compelling 'devil and angel on your shoulder' kind of narrative. I must admit it was appealing.
Is Freud completely outdated?
berticusYes. I wanted to find you a copy of The Unknown Freud, but this will do for now: http://www.salon.com/1995/12/02/freud/
berticus@dystopianfuturetoday i had to work some serious voodoo to get this, i hope you enjoy it:
the unknown freud
dystopianfuturetodayThanks.
critical_dI used the article on Id, Ego, and Super-Ego to illustrate how the examples you gave of fears, worries, and desires are how the mind works. You don't have to "agree" with Freud to learn about his research and teachings.
>> ^dystopianfuturetoday:
@critical_d and @berticus I'd love to hear you two discuss id,ego,super ego.
The wiki page painted a compelling 'devil and angel on your shoulder' kind of narrative. I must admit it was appealing.
Is Freud completely outdated?
berticusmeh, fuck freud. if you want to know how the mind really works, freud is the last person you should turn to.
RyjkyjWe still teach people about Freud, even teachers that don't like him, simply because he was a part of history that advanced the field so far forward. So you can't have a good understanding of modern psychology without at least understanding why Freud was relevant. But in the same way that Dr. Benjamin Rush advanced the field so far forward by suggesting that beating patients might not be the first step in treatment, Freud needs only to be understood as relevant, not understood. But you can't understand why he's relevant until you at least learn a little bit about his method.
Anything over twenty years old in any field should be considered a history lesson at best. Even Darwin didn't have the understanding of evolution that we have now. He just introduced the concept, a huge advancement yes, but it has little to do with the way it actually works.
marinarayou're a musician, you should understand how the same thing can be expressed in different ways. like music, so is speech.
if you wonder how people will react to what you say. I really am mystified how people will react to what i say. There's no predicting it.
I've noticed that people react to the emotions more than to what I say. People are backwards that way. So if you're a maniac about teen pregnancy, they'll react to that, even if you're talking about something different.
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